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Icynene® Insulation–The Ultimate Barrier to High Energy Bills
Photo courtesy of Icynene.com
Remember, my Top 10 This Next List , where I posted my ten favorite green building products? Number 5 on the list is Icynene®, an open cell spray foam insulation. It basically provides a barrier to prevent drafts, condensation, and outdoor allergens from penetrating the building envelope. From personal experience, this is an amazing product.
Icynene® was installed inside the cavities of our exterior walls including the basement walls. I have a geothermal system and swear that my energy bills are so low because of the combination of the two. I run my house at 76 to 78 during the summer (but at 74 at night on the second floor) and am quite comfortable. In the winter I run the house at 68. My air conditioning never runs in the basement and it never feels humid.It is expensive compared to the other insulations. A couple of years ago, I paid $1.40 for a board foot (northeast prices). A board foot is a 1 foot by 1 foot by 1 inch thick square. For my area, it is recommended that there is 6 inches of depth in each cavity wall. (Each board foot is equal to R 3.6) However, in my opinion this insulation is a superior product to fiberglass or other insulations because of the air barrier.Why open cell versus closed cell? Closed cell is denser and therefore more expensive. However, it has a higher R value than an open celled insulation. We chose open cell insulation because we were told that the closed cell insulation off-gassed chemicals. This may or may not be true at the time we installed our insulation, but I was frightened by the prospect of this being true. In addition, if there was a water leak, I would find it easier with an open cell insulation because water can move through it unlike closed cell. Some people prefer closed cell because of its higher R value and it provides a better air barrier.
Icynene has two different applications depending on whether its use is for new construction or touch-ups. Icynene Insulation System ®, which is used for new construction and major retrofits, has two different formulas: sprayed and pour. “Icynene®’s pour fill variation is an insulation and air barrier that injects the latest building technology into an older building to maximize energy efficiency while still preserving its original architectural details,” according to the makers of Icynene® To view both the spray and pour systems in action, view the videos here. If you have a small project or need a touch up, then Gold Seal 400 ® is the product you would use.
In addition, on their website, there is a chart comparing different insulations to Icynene in certain categories such as damaged by water, R value, and whether or not there are any harmful emissions produced after installation is complete. (Remember, this chart is produced by Icynene, not a third party, so use it as a guide.)
Does it have a downside? Icynene® is a petroleum based product. You may or may not view this as a downside.
There are soy-based foam insulations, but I do not have any experience with these products. When we were looking at the different insulations, soy was getting negative publicity. (I heard it was shrinking inside the walls so the stated R value was diminished.) Was this a marketing effort by the other insulation companies? I don’t know. Does anyone have any experience with the soy-based insulations?
For additional reading about the varying type of insulations, Homepower.com has a nice article. See “Get Energy Smart Insulation Options” written in March 2006.
Regardless of which insulation that you choose, the actual installation is the key. If any insulation is installed improperly, it does not matter what its stated R value is. Obtain recommendations from people who have used your intended installer. In addition, read the literature on the product you are intending on using to familiarize yourself with how it is supposed to be installed. An educated homeowner is a happy homeowner in the long run.
I would love feedback on open versus closed cell insulation, and the product you like best and why.
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on September 30th, 2007 at 1:24 am
I’m a contractor and have subcontracted to have Icynene and Corbond (a polyurethane spray foam) installed on a number of my projects. I like them both and would not hesitate to use either one of them. I have Icynene in my own home and have been completely happy with it.
Corbond is about R7 per inch (almost twice that of Icynene), so sometimes code requirements have forced us to use this instead of Icynene when dealing with a limited installation volume. However, Icynene is usually less expensive on a cost per R-value basis.
The only real downside to the spray foams is cost. (Corbond is about $1.00 per board foot in the Seattle area — I’m surprised your market for Icynene is as high as it is!) However, they completely outperform fiberglass on many levels. As you mentioned, they are very effective at stopping air infiltration. Also, they do not signifigantly lose R-value at low temperatures (R19 fiberglass at 18 degrees under moderate wind pressure drops to an R7 rating, for example).
on September 30th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
Ragnar-thanks for the comment. Corbond is a closed cell spray insulation. I tried to find out if there was any offgassing of the product via their website. All it said was it was Corbond is made of “resins similar to popular polyurethane varnishes for wood.” Did it smell when you installed it in houses you built or renovated? I always remember the warning I received about the offgassing of closed cell insulation. Have you heard this too?
I also learned that you can’t add Corbond to the inside of your walls after they are closed up.
Why did you decide to use Icynene over Corbond for you house?
I am curious as to Icynene’s board foot installation price in Seattle. Everything in the northeast is very expensive especially the tri-state area (areas close to NYC).
Please post again because I love hearing from contractors who have used eco-friendly products, and whether or not they like them. If you have some great stories about jobs that you had to fix, please post them on “If I only knew” page.
For our readers, do you build sustainable houses? If so, leave your “url” for our readers or an address for them to contact you in the Seattle area.
on December 1st, 2007 at 12:04 am
You mentioned geothermal in the Northeast and I am curious to see how it works in this area. I am building a house in Mass and interested in geothermal, solar, and Incyene. I know this is a discussion on Incyene, but I have some questions about Geothermal. How much did it cost to install? How big is your house? Did you run into any issues (IE Blasting ledge) and last but certainly not least, how long have you had it and have you had any maintenance issues?
Brian’s last blog post..Episode 7 - The Marketing Show
on December 1st, 2007 at 12:36 am
Hi Brian-you have asked some very important questions and I have a mouthful of suggestions about my geo. Since I built about 3 1/2 years ago, my prices to build my unit has gotten more expensive. Water Furnance has also manufacturered better units since mine (more efficient). I am going to call my geo people and see if they can give me a per sq ft price for you. In addition, I will write a post this week about what I learned. I could probably easily write a page what I would have done differently but the bottom line is I would never trade my geo for the world! Can you hold onto these questions until next week? anna
PS where are in you construction?
on December 1st, 2007 at 12:48 am
We are breaking ground next week, but want to make sure I do this right before getting into it. I can wait untill next week, but hoping you can answer one quick question. How far down did you dig for the loops? I am building in Reading, MA 20 miles north of Boston.
on December 3rd, 2007 at 4:58 am
Brian-I wrote a lengthly post for you. Don’t fall asleep reading it. I hope it helps. See my current post, http://www.green-talk.com/2007.....ownership/
on January 7th, 2008 at 1:08 am
Hi. I am a Mechanical Engineer (with a minor in Polymer Chemistry) and also an Architect. I have been designing and building homes with High-density Polyurethane foam insulation since 1975 and Geothermal Water-source heat pump systems since 1978. I can assure you that High-density Polyurethane does NOT outgas. If you want to prove this to yourself, purchase a can of “Great Stuff High Expansion Foam” (not the low expansion stuff) from Home Depot, spray it in a pile in a warm area, and let it cure for at least 24 hours. You will notice a smell when spraying; this is from the chemicals (part A and B) interacting with each other. Once the chemical reaction finishes, the gas is gone. So, when you break your foam in half you will not smell the gas (depending upon how long it has cured). Note also that if you take this foam block and put it in water, it will not absorb any water and will float there forever. That’s why they use it to line boat hulls. In contrast, Icynene will absorb the water very quickly and sink. This is the problem with Icynene and it must be installed with a water/vapor tight barrier on BOTH sides in order to work properly. Otherwise it will absorb moisture from inside and outside the home and, when wet, will have minimal insulating value and will promote mold growth.
on July 11th, 2008 at 12:30 am
I am an installer of Icynene and I have to speak against the post of Icynene absorbing water. A field test will show that Icynene will float on water indefinetly and NOT absorb water. In fact, Icynene is the ONLY open-cell foam that does not absorb water, YET does let it pass through without absorbtion. If in doubt, please find some and test. Before getting into the business, I personally field tested and/or watched EVERY spray on the market at the time. I am a firm believer in Icynene. My foam business is a third business I started and I wanted only the best….Icynene is it!
on July 11th, 2008 at 1:43 am
Bert, thanks for including your 2 cents. I had a leak in the foundation wall where the icycnene was and the water pass right through it. What do you think of the soy sprays or demalac (spelling?) Anna
on July 11th, 2008 at 2:12 am
Dear Bert,
I am sorry but your field test results have mislead you. Icynene DOES absorb water and will sink if left floating in water long enough.
To prove this, take some icynene, weigh the piece on an accurate scale (i.e.- postal meter), put it in water over night, and then weigh it again. You will see that it has gained a significant amount of weight. This is absorbed water.
My high density rigid polyurethane installer was recently hired to fix a cold storage facility in Massachusetts where the contractor bid the job that specified as high density polyurethane, but installed icynene instead. Within a few months, the water was actually running down the walls and the R-value had gone to zero. It had to all be ripped out (by my friend), the building dried out, and then reinstalled according to spec.
on July 11th, 2008 at 2:47 am
Welcome back, Gary. Anna
on July 22nd, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Greetings all, been reading the posts re Icynene and water. We were very excited to have the product installed and have noticed good utility bills. BUT we had a leak and it has taken 3 years to find the source because the Icynene was holding the water. Now we have found not only the leak, BUT we’ve found MOLD too. The foam was saturated. We wrung it out like a sponge. It held so much water that we needed buckets and dehumidifiers to let it all drip out and collect. Then we found some very nasty mold; stachybotrys, black mold. The comments on the Icynene websites are total lies. This stuff is like a sponge and held the water right up against the wood and the foam even had mushrooms growing out of it! It does not let the water pass right through, it wicked it. I tried an experiment in my kitchen and took a cup of water, added 1 drop of green food coloring then put in the foam. It turned green on the bottom and soaked up so much water that when I took it out after a half hour, it behaved like a sponge. Please let me know if you have any experience that sounds like this or if there have been any lawsuits regarding this issue. We have 3 bathrooms that we now have to tear out!!!!
Many thanks,
Laura
on July 22nd, 2008 at 12:42 pm
By the way, I have pics at the following site; http://icynenedangers.blogspot.com/
Laura Pollaks last blog post..Icynene Lawsuit/ Litigation
on July 22nd, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Laura, thanks for the comments. I have not had that problem but this is something I should look at for. I am wondering if the same thing happens with the other foams such as soy or closed cell? Keep us apprised of your litigation. What is icynene saying about all of this?
Gary, if you are reading, any thoughts about both (soy and closed cell with regards to water.) I know you like the closed cell. Anna
on July 25th, 2008 at 3:38 am
Laura- Your experience with Icynene is exactly what I would expect. I know of many similar stories about this product and am sorry for the troubles you are experiencing. Do not let these lying Icynene SOBs try and trick you with some sort of “fix” or blame you because there was a leak.
It does not require a leak for Icynene to absorb water and start to propagate mold. Normal moisture transpiration in the home will have the same effect, except it takes a longer period of time than a direct leak. The only solution is to rip the Icynene completely out and replace with rigid polyurethane.
Anna- With respect to the Soy or other organic based foam insulations, you will have even worse problems than with Icynene. Soy (organic) based foam is not stable. It will shrink over a fairly short period of time and take surrounding surfaces with it. It will also absorb water like crazy, and the composition of the foam makes an ideal “food” for the resultant mold growth.
Over time, even if it behaves well in every other aspect, Soy and other organic based foams will decompose. They are ORGANIC, so they rot. Sure, there are inhibitors in the foam to retard this process, but after some number of years, the foam will simply turn to dust.
Why not just bite the bullet and use rigid polyurethane foam? It is a plastic that does not degrade, absorb water, rot, or deteriorate.
on July 30th, 2008 at 12:01 am
Greetings again,
Had a 2 hour meeting with attorneys and construction specialist. Looks like they want to have a nice talk with Icynene. I gave them my sample of the product that soaked up water like a sponge just sitting on top of the glass. Also showed them the pics of mold growing out of the Icynene. Will keep you all posted. In the meantime, you can see my blog on the subject at http://icynenedangers.sampasite.com
If anyone knows of other lawsuits or such problems, it would be very helpful. Surely we’re not the only ones that have had to go through this!
Many Thanks,
Laura
Laura Pollaks last blog post..Icynene Lawsuit/ Litigation
on July 30th, 2008 at 2:16 am
What about a hybrid combination of 1 inch closed cell foam against exterior plywood to stop air infiltration and fiberglass for the rest of the cavity? I wonder about condensation and possible mold problems due to the fact that water that gets into the wall will have nowhere to go. Has any one had this done?
on July 30th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Tony B, I am not sure how much the 1 inch would help against air infiltration. It is my understanding that moisture (like condensation not a leak) can not get through with closed cell. Gary, are you reading Tony’s comment? Anna
on July 30th, 2008 at 10:14 am
Laura,
Thanks for keeping us informed. I know you have a blog (which I checked out.) Would you mind, giving us some updates? I would love to hear how Icynene answers the sponge issue. Anna
on July 30th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Tony B- You are right. There are many people who are combining 1″ (or 2″) of closed cell high density polyurethane insulation for the outer surface (on the inside of the exterior sheathing), and then completing the insulation with fiberglas or cellulose. They do this to save money over doing the whole job with urethane.
This 1″ will stop the infiltration. It is very powerful stuff. And the fiberglas insulation will get you there in terms of overall R-value. (I personally don’t like cellulose- water absorbtion issues again.)
But I do worry about the stratification of the insulation. In other words, you have this heat trying to escape the home. It is traveling through the fiberglas with a value of about R2.5 per inch and with no anti moisture migration capability. Now it suddenly hits the urethane with an R7 per inch and total moisture migration prevention. What happens here? Does moisture build up on the inside of the urethane? I don’t know. That is why I always spend the extra few thousand dollars and use urethane all the way through.
Of course, with any well insulated modern home, you need to have an HRV or ERV unit in the home to take the moisture out and bring fresh air in without loss of energy. If the HRV or ERV is properly set up, then you should not have any mold or mildew issues.
on August 1st, 2008 at 3:10 am
Yes, I just installed my HRV system and am soon to insulate. If the 1-2″ of closed cell foam stops air from leaking out of the house (and visa versa) then in the winter hot moist air will not continually be escaping and condensing against the exterior sheeting, lessening the fiberglass R-value and possibly causing mold and rot. If the closed cell foam efectively stops air infiltration wouldn’t the moisture content within the wall be equal to that of the inside space, which is controlled by the HRV? I would sure like to see some studies on this or hear of anyone with experience with this hybrid system before I do it.
on August 1st, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Hi Guys, been watching these conversations and have to ask the following… If the Icynene is sprayed on the ceiling rafters and actually covers the soffit openings can I have the house washed without soaking the foam? Can I have the windows cleaned without the pressure washer getting water into the foam by the soffits? Another question… we just got a report from a structural engineer… are there supposed to be weep holes above windows? We have very few weep holes and this is a 3 story house with large windows? Also, is head flashing supposed to come out 2 inches beyond the brick veneer?
Many thanks for the expert info!
Laura
Laura Pollaks last blog post..Icynene Lawsuit/ Litigation
on August 2nd, 2008 at 9:27 am
Tony B- The moisture content in your home is constantly changing with the weather. It changes rapidly with doors/windows opening/closing and with things you are doing inside (showers, dishwasher, laundry, etc.).
The air inside the wall (between the drywall and the close cell foam) is essentially the same moisture content as that of your home. But it does not change rapidly due to the fact that it has to migrate through the drywall to get into that space. And once it gets wet, it tends to stay that way.
Mold needs 3 things: moisture, warmth, and no moving air. The space occupied by the fiberglas meets all of these criteria. However, the fiberglas itself may mitigate mold growth; I don’t know.
on August 11th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Gary,
We are building a home in Houston, Tx. I would like to use very energy efficient insulation. I’m concerned about the water issues with icynene which has been suggested to us. Which insulation would you recommend and for which locations? You mention High-density Polyurethane foam insulation, what brand name would that be? I would really appreciate your help, I am extremely frustrated with the lack of substantial, truthful information.
Thank you so much in advance.
Lisa
on August 11th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Lisa- There are many different manufacturers of high density rigid polyurethane foam insulation. The best known one to me is Corbond ( http://www.corbond.com/ )
Although this might be a little technical, I think that you might find this link to the “Center for Polyurethanes Industry” most interesting and helpful: http://www.polyurethane.org/s_.....p;DID=3622
You asked, “…which insulation would you recommend and for which locations…”. From my point of view, using sprayed in place (goes on with a spray gun as a liquid) high density polyurethane or polyisocyanurate rigid insulation is the best insulation money can buy and, in the hands of the right installer, can be utilized throughout your home- walls and ceiling/attic. However, it must be covered with a fire barrier (i.e.- drywall) of at least 15 minutes per most local building codes.
The best way to make sure that you get the right stuff and that it is installed correctly is to select an experienced and well respected spray foam installer. Make sure to ask for references, several of them, and ask about their experience with insulating cold storage buildings. (Hint: If they have no cold storage experience that they can reference, they are not the right person for your project.)